Translating Suri Nagamma, letter 182, with an AI

Rico and I talked in comments the other day about letter 179 in the English edition of Letters from Sri Ramanasramam by Suri Nagamma.

We agreed that the letter is hard to understand. I thought the English translation, which was done by Suri’s brother D.S. Sastri, is probably garbled, so I asked a state of the art AI (Claude Fable 5.1) to compare Suri’s Telugu to her brother’s English. Sure enough, the English version contains a number of mistakes including omission of a sentence in a crucial paragraph.

I discussed the original Telugu letter at length with the AI, talking about the meaning and asking about Telugu words that play a critical role in conveying the meaning but don’t translate straightforwardly or unambiguously into English. I asked it to make a glossary of those words. This conversation forced the AI to think carefully about translation issues.

Then I asked it to translate the letter into English. More discussion followed, including more questions about exact word meanings and requests for changes from me. Then I showed the translation to a different state of the art AI, ChatGPT Sol 5.6, and asked it to flag mistakes and suggest improvements. It didn’t find any mistakes but it suggested a few changes which I discussed with the first AI. We decided to incorporate some of the suggestions but reject others.

The glossary and translation go together. To link them, I asked the AI to put every Telugu glossary word in brackets in the translation.

Included below:

1. New translation.
2. Glossary that accompanies the new translation.
3. Telugu text.
4. Published English translation by Suri’s brother, D.S. Sastri.

This letter is number 179 in the English edition but according to the blog from which I obtained the Telugu text, it’s 182 in the Telugu edition.

An important caveat: I obtained the Telugu text from a blog (linked below). I don’t know whether it’s an accurate copy of Suri’s book. The AI tells me that the blog text contains several typos which doesn’t induce much confidence.

I’m writing this post to inspire other people to try this sort of thing. I learn more from the discussions with the AIs than from the resulting translations. One thing that helps a lot is asking them to make a hyper-literal translation, although I didn’t do it in this case.

I’m putting my name first in the new translation’s byline to emphasize to anyone who tries this that you can’t just ask an AI to translate this kind of text. If you do that you’ll get crap. You need to go through a process like I described above of talking with the AI about the text in a fairly deep way to make it think, and asking detailed questions about its drafts, causing it to produce a series of revisions.

New translation by Freddie and Claude Fable 5.1

Letters from Sri Ramanasramam, Number 182
The Path of Love — 28 April 1948

This morning at eight a young Tamil man approached Bhagavan and asked, “Swami, loving [prēmiñcu] God [daivam] is a good thing, isn’t it? Why shouldn’t one go by the path of love [prēma-mārgam]?”

Bhagavan, taken aback, said: “Who said you shouldn’t? You can. But there is one thing. The moment you say ‘loving’ [prēmiñcaṭam], haven’t you [tānu] and God [daivam] become two? But you [tānu] are not one thing and God [daivam] another. So ‘loving’ [prēmiñcaṭam] just means one has greater love [prēma] for oneself [tanayandē tanaku]. That is what the illustration of how the self is valued [ātma-priyatva] in the Vasudeva Mananam explains, moving inward step by step [antarāntara].

“To a man, wealth is what he values [priyam]. He values his son more than his wealth; his body more than his son; among the senses, his eye more than his body; his life [prāṇam] more than his eye; and the self [ātma] more than his life [prāṇam] [priyamainavi]. How so? If a son commits some crime and the king’s officers are ready to punish him, the parents can’t bear it and hand over everything in the house as a bribe to get him released. So the son is valued [priyam] more than wealth. Now suppose they won’t release the offending son for bribes and say, ‘We’ll let him go only if you submit yourself in his place.’ The father won’t agree; he says, ‘I have nothing to do with this boy,’ and gets himself out of it. So the body is valued [priyam] more than the son.

“If the king’s men set out to put out the eyes of any man who has committed a crime, he submits his body to punishment and tries to save his eyes. So the senses are valued [priyam] more than the body. And if the king’s men are not satisfied with the senses and set out to cut off his head, he agrees to give up the senses. So life [prāṇam] is valued [priyam] more than the senses. In the same way, a man who longs for the bliss [ānandam] of the self [ātmānandam] will agree even to give up his life [prāṇam]. To him the self [ātma] is valued [priyam] more than life [prāṇam].

“Therefore, knowing [neṟugu] oneself [tananu] as the self [ātma], whose very nature is to be valued [priya-rūpam], is itself what loving [prēmiñcaṭam] God [daivam] is. You [tānu] want to love [prēmiñcu] God [daivam] in order to be happy [sukham], don’t you? You yourself [tānu] are happiness [sukham], and happiness [sukham] itself is God [daivam]. Then whom is there to love [prēmiñcu]? Love [prēma] itself is God [daivam].”

“That is exactly why I’m asking, Swami, whether one may worship [bhajiñcu] God [bhagavantuḍu] by the path of love [prēma-mārgam],” the questioner said.

“Yes! That’s what I’m telling you. Love [prēma] is God’s very nature [bhagavat-svarūpam]. Saying ‘this isn’t pleasing [priyam] to me, that isn’t agreeable [prēmakaram] to me,’ if you throw out [tōsivēyu] everything, good [manci] and bad [ceḍḍa] alike, whatever remains — that is your own [tana] nature [svarūpam]. That is pure love [prēma]. Call that real love [prēma] God [bhagavantuḍu], call it the self [ātma], call it whatever you like: that is bhakti, that is jñāna, that is everything,” said Bhagavan.

Someone else said, “What you have just said means: throw out [tōsivēyu] your love [prēma] for the bad things [dur-viṣaya] and the good things [sad-viṣaya] that show up inside and outside, and love [prēmiñcu] only God [īśvaruḍu]. But will the thought of throwing them out [tōsivēyu] ever arise, saying ‘this isn’t pleasing [priyam], that isn’t pleasing [priyam]’? Only after experiencing everything can one throw it out [tōsivēyu], no?”

“That’s true. That’s why, to throw out [tōsivēyu] the bad [ceḍḍa], you have to love [prēmiñcu] the good [manci]. In the end, since even that shows up as an obstacle, that good [manci] has to be thrown out [tōsivēyu] too. But first you must love [prēmiñcu] the good [manci]. Love it [prēmiñcu], and then reject it [nirasiñcu]. When everything is thrown out [tōsivēyu] that way, what is left is you yourself [tānē]. That is true love [prēma]. To those who know the secret of that love [prēma-rahasyam], the whole world appears as nothing but love [prēma-mayam],” said Bhagavan, and fell silent.

New translation glossary by Freddie and Claude Fable 5.1

English	Source word	Meaning
God	దైవం daivam	Impersonal; open to a nondual reading. Bhagavan’s word throughout.
	భగవంతుడు bhagavantuḍu	Personal. The first questioner’s word, echoed by Bhagavan.
	ఈశ్వరుడు īśvaruḍu	Personal. The second questioner’s word only.
love	ప్రేమ prēma	ordinary love; also covers devotion. Not a technical term
valued, pleasing	ప్రియం priya	In the letter, means both what one prefers when forced to choose and what is pleasing.
self, yourself, himself, etc.	ఆత్మ ātma	Sanskrit loan; carries Vedanta associations
	తాను tānu	native pronoun; everyday “oneself.” Bhagavan’s usual word
moving inward step by step	అంతరాంతరాలుగ antarāntara	Means both “step by step” and “inner within inner”
happiness	సుఖం sukham	everyday well-being
bliss	ఆనందం ānandam	the Vedanta term for the bliss of the self
life	ప్రాణం prāṇam	breath, the life-force — not “one’s life story”
nature	స్వరూపం svarūpam	what a thing really is
good / bad	మంచి / చెడ్డ manci / ceḍḍa	plain Telugu; Bhagavan’s words
good things / bad things	సద్విషయాలు / దుర్విషయాలు sad-viṣaya / dur-viṣaya	Vedanta Sanskrit. The second questioner’s words.
throw out	తోసివేయు tōsivēyu	Plain Telugu. Bhagavan’s and the second questioner’s word.
reject	నిరసించు nirasiñcu	Sanskrit. Bhagavan’s one shift to the formal word.
knowing	నెఱుగు neṟugu	Plain Telugu, not jñāna. Bhagavan’s word for the crucial act.
worship	భజించు bhajiñcu	same root as bhakti

Original Telugu text by Suri Nagamma

From https://bhagavanraman.blogspot.com/2019/02/182-28-4-48.html. May not be accurate.

రమణాశ్రమ లేఖలు 182
ప్రేమ మార్గం
28-4-48

ఈ ఉదయం ఎనిమిది గంటలకు తమిళ యువకులొకరు భగవానుని సమీపించి “స్వామీ! దైవాన్ని ప్రేమించడం మంచిదేకదా. ప్రేమమార్గంలో ఎందుకు పోకూడదు?” అని ప్రశ్నించారు.

భగవాన్ చకితులై “కూడదని ఎవరన్నారు? పోవచ్చును. అయితే ఒకటి. ప్రేమించటం అనేసరికి తానొకడు, దైవమొకడు రెండు కాలేదా? తాను వేరు, దైవం వేరు కాదే. అందువల్ల ప్రేమించటం అంటే, తనయందే తనకు ఎక్కువ పేమన్నమాట. దీనికే వాసుదేవ మననంలో ఆత్మ ప్రియత్వ దృష్టాంతం అంతరాంతరాలుగ చెప్పబడి వున్నది. మనుష్యునికి ధనమే ప్రియం. ఆ ధనం కంటే పుత్రుడు, పుత్రునికన్న శరీరము, శరీరము కంటే ఇంద్రియాలలో కన్ను, కన్ను కన్నా ప్రాణము, ఆ ప్రాణం కంటే ఆత్మ ప్రియమైనవి. అదీ ఎలాగంటే పుత్రుడైనవాడు ఏదైనా అకృత్యం చేస్తే వాడిని రాచనగరివారు దండించేందుకు సిద్ధమైనప్పుడు వాని తల్లిదండ్రులది సహించలేక ఇంట్లో ఉన్న వస్తువులన్నీ లంచమిచ్చి విడిపించుకుంటారు. అందువల్ల విత్తనము పుత్రుడు ప్రియం. ఆ అకృత్యం చేసిన పుత్రుడిని లంచాలతో వదలక వానికి బదులు నీవు లోబడితే వదులుతామని అంటారనుకో అప్పుడా తండ్రి దానికి ఒప్పక, ‘నాకూ ఈ చిన్నవాడికీ సంబంధం లేద’ని చెప్పి తప్పించుకుని వస్తాడు. అందుచేత పుత్రుని కన్నా శరీరం ప్రియం.

అకృత్యం చేసిన ఏ మానవుడైనా తన్ను రాజ భటులు కన్నులు పొడవడానికి యత్నిస్తే శరీరం దండనకి ఒడంబడి కన్నులు కాపాడుకోవాలని చూస్తాడు. కాబట్టి శరీరం కన్నా ఇంద్రియాలు ప్రియం. ఆ రాచవారొకవేళ ఇంద్రియాలతో వదలక తలగొట్ట తలపెట్టినట్లైతే ఇంద్రియాలు ఇవ్వడానికి ఒప్పుకుంటాడు. అందుచేత ఇంద్రియాల కన్న ప్రాణం ప్రీయం. అదే విధంగా ఆత్మానందంలో అపేక్షగలవాడు ప్రాణాన్ని విడువటానికి కూడా ఒప్పుకుంటాడు. వానికి ప్రాణ కన్న ఆత్మ ప్రియం. అందువల్ల తనను ప్రియరూపమైన ఆత్మగా నెఱుగుటయే దైవాన్ని ప్రేమించటం. తాను సుఖంగా ఉండాలని కదా దైవాన్ని ప్రేమించ దలచటం. తాను సుఖమాయె, సుఖమే దైవమాయే. ఇక ప్రేమించేదెవరిని? ప్రేమయే దైవం.” అని సెలవిచ్చారు.

“అందుకే భగవంతుని ప్రేమమార్గంలో భజింపవచ్చునా? అని అడుగుతున్నాను స్పామీ” అన్నారావృచ్చకులు. “ఆహా! అదేకదా చెపుతున్నాను. ప్రేమయే భగవత్స్వరూపం. ‘నాకిడి ప్రియంకాదు. నాకది ప్రేమకరంగా లేదు.’ అంటూ మంచి, చెడ్డా అన్నీ తోసివేస్తే మిగిలేదేదో అదే తన స్వరూపం. అదే స్వఛ్ఛమైన ప్రేమ, ఆ యధార్థ ప్రేమనే భగవంతుడనుకో, ఆత్మ అనుకో, ఏమన్నా అనుకో, అదే భక్తి. అదే జ్ఞానం, అదే అన్నీను” అన్నారు భగవాన్.

“బాహ్యాభ్యంతరములందు తోచే దుర్విషయాల మీదా, సద్విషయాల మీదా ప్రేమను తోసివేసి ఈశ్వరుడినే ప్రేమించాలని కదా తామిప్పుడు సెలవిచ్చిన దానికి అర్ధం. ఇది ప్రియం కాదు, అది ప్రియం కాదు అని తోసివేయటానికి చే బుది పుడుతుందా? అన్నీ అనుభవిస్తే కదా తోసివేయటానికి?” అన్నారు కొకరు. “అదినిజమే. అందుకే చెడ్డను తోసివేసేందుకు మంచిని ప్రేమించాలి. కడకు అదీ అడ్డుగానే తోస్తుంది కనుక, ఆ మంచినీ తోసివేయాలిసిందే. అయితే, ముందు మంచిని ప్రేమించాలి. ప్రేమించి నిరసించాలన్నమాట. అలా అన్నిటినీ తోసివేస్తే, ఉండేది తానే. అదే నిజమైన ప్రేమ. ఆ ప్రేమరహస్య మెరిగిన వారికి, లోకమంతా ప్రేమమయంగానే తోస్తుంది” అని చెప్పి మౌనం వహించారు భగవాన్.

Published translation by D.S. Sastri

Taken from Sri Ramanasramam’s PDF of the fifth revised edition, 2006

26th April, 1948
Number 179, The Path of Love

This morning a Tamil youth approached Bhagavan and asked, “Swami, it is good to love God, is it not? Then why not follow the path of Love?”

“Who said you couldn’t follow it? You can do so. But when you talk of love, there is duality, is there not — the person who loves and the entity called God who is loved? The individual is not separate from God. Hence love means one has love towards one’s own Self. For this, i.e., loving one’s own Self, examples have been given in the Vasudeva Mananam, stage by stage. Man loves money most; but he loves his son more than money; his own body more than the son; his indriyas (the organs of the body) more than the body; the eye most among the organs; life more than the eye; and the self (atma) more than life. This is exemplified thus: If the son does something untoward and the government decides to punish him for it, the parents offer money and even bribes to set him free. Hence the love towards the son is more than money. If, however, the government does not accept money but say that they will let off the son if the father agrees to undergo the punishment himself instead, then the father will say, ‘Do whatever you like with the boy; I have nothing to do with him’. Hence the father loves his own body more than his son. If a man does something for which the powers that be say that his eyes must be plucked out, he tries to save his eyes by agreeing to bodily torture; so bodily torture is preferred to loss of an organ. If, however, they decide to take his life by beheading him, he would be prepared to lose his eyes or any other organ rather than lose his life; so life (prana) is loved more than the organs. In the same manner, a person who desires to have Atma-Anandam (bliss of the Self) would be prepared to lose his life even, if necessary; so the Self is loved more than life. Hence the idea of a person in loving God, is only with a view to being happy himself. He is, however, the embodiment of happiness and that happiness is God. Who else is to be loved? Love itself is God,” said Bhagavan.

“That is why I am asking you whether God could be worshipped through the path of love?” said the questioner.

“That is exactly what I have been saying. Love itself is the actual form of God. If by saying, ‘I do not love this; I do not love that’, you reject all things, that which remains is Swarupa, i.e., the innate Self. That is pure bliss. Call it pure bliss, God, atma or what you will. That is devotion; that is realization and that is everything,” said Bhagavan.

“The meaning of what you say now is that we should reject all outside things which are bad, and also all those which are good, and love God alone. Is it possible for anyone to reject everything, saying this is no good, that is no good, unless one experiences them?” said some other.

“That is true. To reject the bad, you must love the good. In due course that good also will appear to be an obstacle and will be rejected. Hence, you must necessarily first love what is good. That means you must first love and then reject the thing you love. If you thus reject everything, what remains is the Self alone. That is real love. One who knows the secret of that love finds the world itself full of universal love,” said Bhagavan and resumed silence.

Links

Telugu text
From Bhagavan Ramanan Telugu on Blogspot.

Letters from Sri Ramanasramam by Suri Nagamma
Complete published translation by Suri Nagamma’s brother D.S. Sastri. Sri Ramanasramam’s PDF of fifth revised edition. Link goes to index page on Realization.org. Scroll down to “Suri Nagamma” — alphabetized under S — and click.